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Wednesday, June 5, 2013

Deworming and Goats

Goats are wonderful hardy creatures that have so many farm uses.  From clearing brush, to providing milk and meat, to making wonderful pets.  They need little care and are usually very easy to care for and healthy.  But over the years I have learned that there are two things that can cause ill health and kill a goat quickly.  The biggest and first one is worms.  The second is lack of particular minerals in ones area.  In ours it is copper and selenium that I really need to supplement. 
Today, I am going to focus on worms.  I am not talking about the worms that are in the ground in our garden.  I am talking about internal parasites that you need a microscope to see.  A worm overload can kill a goat very quickly.  They suck the blood of the goat internally till they are weak and anemic and die.  Most often when someone calls me and says their goat is dying of pneumonia or is sick it is a secondary sickness brought on by a high parasite load that weakens the immune system.  So the sickness is a secondary issues to the first, which is an untreated worm overload.
There are many approaches out there to worming ones animals.  And if you do a "Google search" you will come up with many ways to worm.  Some very complicated and some very simple.  The complicated is often very expensive and the simple ways are not always going to work for your farm in the long run. 
I am not an expert and any information you glean from this and apply, use at your own risk.  But this is what I have learned over the years and works for us.
In the wild, goats are browsers not grazers.  Goats eat brush and leaves off trees and weeds, their mouths in the wild are up away from the grass, so they don't pick up heavy worm loads.  They also are always on the move.  So don’t constantly eat where they are going to the bathroom re-ingesting worms.  So goats in the wild usually don’t have worm issues unless they are immune compromised.  We have turned, in most cases, our goats into grazers.  As our properties are small and we could not grow enough browse to keep them fed.
First, I will touch on natural worming.  I think it is wonderful and admirable to try to not use chemicals on our animals.  But I have not found a way to keep my goats alive, if I was to try to use natural ways to keep them wormed.  I have had so many people thru the years come to me for goats and for guidance and they choose to try to keep their goats wormed naturally and end up with dead goats quickly.  They usually think it is working for some time.  As things go along good for a year or so.(if they started out on a farm that never had goats before)  But once the worm load on their pastures grows the goats start dying and it is sad.  People use all kinds or natural means from on the internet.  The only one I have tried that kind of worked was from Hoeggers.  But I still ended up HAVING to go back to chemical wormers to bring my goats back to good health.  As most things natural take longer to work and with a goat when they are down, time is of the essence.  People also try” feed grade” diatomatious earth. (not pool chemical grade, that is toxic and will kill livestock and animals)  One would need to get your goat to eat at least 1/4 cup a day of it for it  to do any good at all, as they have so many stomachs and it is so big inside their rumen.  I could not even hide a tablespoon of it in my goats feed before they would reject their feed and not eat it. 
So this brings us to chemical wormers.  First off, I must say there are very few wormers out there labeled for goat use and the ones that are out there don’t work or don’t work well.  So that leaves people with using wormer “off-label”.  So in other words…..using cattle or horse wormer on a goat.  Common wormers people use are Valbazon and Safeguard, (both of those are considered white wormers)  And then there is Ivromecin injectable for cattle, that people use orally for goats or Cydectin pour on (yes the nasty purple stinky stuff for cattle)  that people use orally for goats.  Cydectin is the last resort wormer.  As it is the last invented one that works and there is no new wormers being developed right now that work.  So if you use Cydectin be careful not to over use it and make the worms on your property resistant to it!
 As I said there are many ways to worm.  Now, many people take a potty sample, from every goat they have,(think separate baggies labeled with which goat the potty came from in each one) to the vet for a parasite count before deworming.  That is a very smart way to do it.  But I can’t afford that.  But the information they get back is very good.  It tells If the goat needs to be wormed.(which ones)  What the parasites are that it has, and then you will know what wormer to use to treat the worms, as certain wormers work on different types of worms.  You don’t have to use something stronger than you need.  Then after they put their goat up in a stall and treat their goat they take a new potty sample back in 2 weeks later to make sure it all worked.  I have so many goats I can not afford to do that.  Nor do I have the time to label baggies and stand at the south end of each goat following them around for a fresh sample.  YIKES!   Although I know of people who have bought their own microscope and floatation kit and learned to check it themselves. 
As I said, I can’t afford to do things that way.  What I have found is that most wormers have been terribly over used or not used properly over the years.  And most worms have built up a tolerance to almost all the wormers we have on the market available to us.  Some of the meat goat farmers have found the only way to keep their stock alive and growing to get them to market is to feed them wormer consistently all the time.  Doing this quickly makes the chemical wormers we have available to us not work anymore.  Whenever one worms their animal it kills a bunch of worms and some are affected but live.   The ones that live get passed out onto the pasture and re-ingested and are more resistant to that wormer that was just used.  Till it does not effect them at all anymore.  So what happens over time is…..you see your goat has a worm over load.  You use the wormer you always used and it worked every time you used it…….but all of a sudden this time it doesn’t work anymore and bam…dead goat…..to late.  Your pastures will soon be covered in parasites to which there is no way to worm your goats and keep them well. 
What I do, when I deworm,  is put the goats I am going to worm, in a stall with no outdoor access.  Deworm them and keep them in there for two days.  They potty all the worms dead or not in the stall and I muck it out and put it on the compost heap.  Which they have no access to.  Then let them out on a clean pasture that has not been grazed for eight weeks.   After they have been grazing on that pasture for about 8 weeks.  I check them for worms by pulling down their lower eye lid.  If it is white – danger- very anemic- deworm…if light pink-pretty bad -deworm -  if mediam pink – I deworm   if dark pink…I just put them into the new pasture that has not been grazed on for eight weeks.  Rotating every eight weeks from pasture to pasture breaks the parasite cycle in many cases.  And deworming before turning them out onto fresh pasture that has not been grazed in 8 weeks makes sure they are going out onto a pretty clean pasture.  Checking eye lids shows me who needs worming and who does not.  Just because one doe does, dosen't mean they all do.  I have goats that hardly ever need worming and some that I have to worm every four months or so to keep them healthy.  I often grazed ponies behind the goats on opposite rotation on our fields to" vaccum up" parasites as goats and ponies don’t share many of the same parasites.  Then deworm the ponies in their stalls.  I worm very carefully and still ivromectin does not work well here on my property anymore.  Most likely because some goats I bought and brought here, were from farms that ivromectin did not work and any worms in the goats I bought, were passed onto my land and now….it doesn’t work well.
So on the goats on my property I always worm the does two weeks before breeding, so I should not have to worm them while pregnant.  (if you have to deworm a bred doe, safe guard is the only wormer I know that can safely be used on pregnant goats)   Then I deworm them the day they kid.  As the stress of labor and delivery can cause a worm spike.  Also, we can’t drink the milk for one week anyways as it has colostrum in it.  It takes a week for the colostrums and wormer to be out of the milk and then we can drink it.  And doing it that way I usually don’t have to worm while my goat is in milk.  It is an awful thing to me to have to deworm while a goat is in milk, as one has to dump the milk for five days before drinking it again.  A waste to me.  Even though we feed it to chickens and dogs and cats when that happens.
My bucks I deworm as needed but try to do it twice a year.  They are not under as much stress as does bodies are and I usually don’t have worm issues with my bucks. 
There was a study I read recently that connected worm  loads to copper deficiency.  They found that goats that were low in copper had much higher worm loads than the others.  And that if they got their copper levels up the worm load went down.  Even when not worming them with anything. Now I am just sharing this with you all so you can look it up and read about it if interested.  As it might answer a trouble someone might have in keeping their goats wormed.  Copper is toxic if to much is given.  But we are so low here I have to feed a goat feed high in copper, have out loose minerals for goats high enough in copper and copper bolus my goats twice a year to keep them healthy, keep their coats looking good and them having good deliveries.  Anyways, just wanted to share that often parasites and deficient diet can go hand in hand.

Blessings and happy farming,
susan

14 comments:

  1. Interersting, Susan. I also learnt about your eight week cycle on farm land. Sure is allot to learn about having a farm. Your sure interesting and smart lady.....
    Thank you for sharing.
    Blessing.

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    1. Hi Deb, Thanks for taking the time to comment. God is so good and has helped me to learn a lot over the years. I am grateful to Him for all things. Blessings!

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  2. i will not have a farm of goats just 2 nannies as pets and im learning as much as i can before we pick hers up in 2 week it has been like 8 weeks since they have been wormed and it is just them a momma and there brother how often should i deworm and with what i have a half acre of way over grown grass and weeds for them to graze on and then a pen for them at night any input would be great

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  3. If you are just going to have two goats on half an acre you should not have to much of a worm problem. As they will be moving around and grazing there favorite things in one area and then moving to another. You also will not be over populated at all. I would lock them in a pen as soon as you get them and deworm them again once you get them on your property as the change of farm might make them stressed and cause a worm load increase. Keep them in the pen for 24 hours to potty out all the worms and then turn them out onto your pasture.. With such low numbers and such a huge area I bet you will not have to worm more than twice a year. But you can take a fecal in to your vet any time to check and see if they need it. It usually cost like 10 bucks to have done. Ask what wormer the people use that you are getting them from and use a different wormer than they do when you bring them onto your property. As they might have build up a resistance to what that place has been using.

    Hope this helps. Blessings!

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  4. Thank you Susan for your wealth of info. and your easy to follow along. Love all the pictures.

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    1. Thank you pamchen for leaving a comment! It always makes my day! Blessings!

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  5. What do you use to deworm your goats?

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    1. Hello Madeline and thank you for writing. We use wormers that are off label for goats. So use them at your own risk. I am not a vet and am not giving advice. But what we use on our goats and for us it works is...I use cydectin (pour on for cattle) orally. And Ivromectin injectable orally on our goats. Hope this helps. Blessings!

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  6. With using Ivermectin, how long does one wait before drinking the milk?

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    1. I am not a vet, so it is your decision, based on what knowledge you have. :) Believe it or not the withdraw time is... In the US: 36 days
      In the UK: 14 days

      The information can be found here.
      http://fiascofarm.com/goats/wormers.htm#ivomec

      Look under ivromectin injectable on the above page link. Personally I go five to seven days. Depending on how fast I need milk. That is our choice and what we do. I figure that Ivromectin is given to children in third world countries to deworm them. So it is safe for humans. The trace amounts that would be in my milk after seven days should be a very small amount and I do not worry about it. I deworm the day I breed my goats and the day my goat kids. I rarely have to deworm more than that. So I do not run into having to dump milk. As by the time the colostrum is out of the milk, after seven days, we start to drink it. Of course do all this at your own risk. Hope this helps. Blessings!

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  7. I have one goat that gets scaley skin and hair loss every spring. I deworm with horse paste (exodus) and shave & bath in the summer and it gradually clears but comes back. Can I copper bolus on the same day I deworm or how soon after?

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  8. I am not a vet, so do anything I say at your own risk.. :) but I would assume you can copper bolus the same day as deworming. As they are two totally different things. I have done it. Some of my bucks were not bottle fed and are quite wild. I catch them all twice a year and give them everything... A good hoof trimming, worming, copper bolusing and bo-se shot. Then let them go. I would add BOSS to her diet if she is not already eating it. It adds some very good oil to their diet. Also Kelp and Bo-Se might help her if you are selenium deficient in your area. I had a goat that did that and it was always mites. She had a weaker immune system than my other goats. I would have to treat her and only her every spring/winter. I have a blog post on it somewhere. I pray you can get it all cleared up for good. Blessings and happy farming!

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  9. This is my first experience with goats and I only have 2. A buck and a doe, who is pregnant and due in about 5 days. She is acting like she does not feel good for about 3 days now. She lays around and her eyes don't look good. I checked her eyelids and she is wormy. I'm not sure if this is her only problem or if there is something else going on. Her bag is not filling, although her teats are a little swollen. This is her first time kidding. I am a nervous wreck and now worried something bad may happen. What should I do? She won't let me really check her out. Anywhere past her head and she runs.I was told to inject her with ivermac plus but I have read that it is not safe. Help please?

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    1. Hello, so sorry to hear of your troubles. We care so deeply for our animals it is hard to see them having issues. Especially, when we don't know exactly what is going on or how to give immediate help to bring relief. I am not a vet so take anything I say as such. Even as a first freshener if she is due in five days she should have developed an udder for the first time. So that is a bit strange you are correct. Being wormy can be life threatening. Especially under stress as she is now. Put on that the stress of labor and you might have an issue. She is so close to delivering anyway (if you are correct on her due date) if she were mine, I would go ahead and take the chance and go ahead and worm with a good oral wormer. Injecting ivromectin is not going to work in a goat to adequately deworm them. Use one that you know will work in your area. Research pour on Cydectin used orally in goats or maybe cattle injectable used orally in goats. These are of course off label use but very effective. You also should really have someone hold her and take her temp. That will tell if anything else is going on. If she has a fever and such. Many secondary things happen when a goat has worms heavily. I pray all goes well and she gets better fast. One more thing to mention is a few of my goats do lay around quite a bit starting a few days before delivering. Blessings.

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